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SCOTT ISAACS

Transplanted Kentuckian living in Ohio - GO BIG BLUE!
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Netanyahu Changes Terms Of Middle East Peace With Little Attention

Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:06 AM EDT
politics, barack-obama, israel, united-states, middle-east, palestine, hamas, fatah, benjamin-netanyahu, peace-process
By Scott Isaacs

Live Poll

Has Netanyahu changed the peace process plan substantially?

View Results
  • 45691
    Yes
    45%
  • 45692
    No
    55%

VoteTotal Votes: 20

The flag of Israel

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Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gave a speech on June 14 that could have serious implications on the peace process but few people noticed because of the Iranian election and the aftermath of the protests, government crackdown, etc. Netanyahu fundamentally changed the equation of Middle East peace that the United States and Israel had been operating on for forty years prior. Not only does this change create potential problems of its own, but the proposals by Netanyahu are next to impossible to carry out successfully.

The substance of Netanyahu's speech was located in the following paragraph that was translated in Haaretz: (emphasis mine)

I came here tonight to talk about the agreement and security that are broad consensus within Israeli society. This is what guides our policy. This policy must take into account the international situation. We have to recognize international agreements but also principles important to the State of Israel. I spoke tonight about the first principle - recognition. Palestinians must truly recognize Israel as the state of the Jewish people. The second principle is demilitarization. Any area in Palestinian hands has to be demilitarization, with solid security measures. Without this condition, there is a real fear that there will be an armed Palestinian state which will become a terrorist base against Israel, as happened in Gaza. We do not want missiles on Petah Tikva, or Grads on the Ben-Gurion international airport. We want peace. (Applause)
And, to ensure peace we don't want them to bring in missiles or rockets or have an army, or control of airspace, or make treaties with countries like Iran, or Hizbullah. There is broad agreement on this in Israel. We cannot be expected to agree to a Palestinian state without ensuring that it is demilitarized. This is crucial to the existence of Israel, we must provide for our security needs.

The passage in bold indicates the two requirements that Netanyahu has set forth for Israel to agree to peace with a potential Palestinian state: it must recognize Israel's right to exist and it must be demilitarized with no military, no control over airspace, etc. The first condition is not problematic since Palestinian refusal to recognize Israel is little more than a bargaining chip. The second point of demanding demilitarization is the true sticking point.

Demilitarization removes the possibility of establishing a state. A state, going all the way back to when Hobbes penned Leviathan, is defined first and foremost as the originator of legitimate violence. Max Weber called it "monopoly of force" in Politics as a Vocation. The state maintains a military and, if it desires, a police force through which it exercises legitimate violence and it can legally empower private entities to use violence in situations when it is deemed necessary. It is imperative, however, that the state possess sufficient force that no private group or entity within the territory that it claims sovereignty over can ignore the writ of the government nor use force to act in contravention of the law or overthrow the government. Any group that does not meet those minimum requirements is not a state or a government, they are simply one armed mob among many. There can be no law without law enforcement. A contract is a promise subject to the whims of the promise maker without a system of laws deciphered by a system of jurisprudence and enforced by an executive. Rights flow from the barrel of a gun. To insist that Israel will agree to a Palestinian state if, and only if, it is demilitarized is tantamount to saying that Israel will never agree to a Palestinian state.

Netanyahu also talked of making certain that no weapons such as missiles or rockets could make their way into the new Palestinian "state" to insure that it remained demilitarized. As the Soviets found out to their dismay in their satellite states, a border is not an impenetrable line. It is a place where one government's writ ends and another's begins. As such, borders are only as good at keeping out proscribed goods as the border guards are. The balance of history reveals as farce Netanyahu's talk of keeping missiles and rockets out of a new Palestinian state. Whether it is through bribed border guards, long tunnels or the fast boats of gunrunners splitting the Israeli Navy's blockade, they will get there. Netanyahu should take a lesson from the United States' War on Drugs. As of today, June 28, 2009, the federal government and all fifty state governments together have spent $25 BILLION to eradicate illicit drugs in this country. Despite this (and despite the fact that I don't do drugs), I could drive to the rougher part of Hamilton where the motels rent by the hour and it's not a good idea to get out of your car and I could get most of the types of drugs that the government spent $25 billion prohibiting for the right price. If I couldn't get them from a corner, that person would know who to call. The fact is that it is impossible to 100% stop anything from getting anywhere and the job becomes harder when people's determination to carry the contraband to the specific area is unshakable, emboldened by big money for easy work or by religious fervor. Israel's attempts to prevent missiles and rockets getting to a new, demilitarized Palestinian "state" would be confronted by gunrunners willing to risk everything for major profit and, far more problematic, Islamists that would do anything to get the weaponry there because they firmly believe that they are performing God's will.

So, theoretically, what will happen when Israel accepts this new, demilitarized Palestinian "state" and its toothless government and ordnance begins to land on Sderot again? The IDF (Israeli Defense Force) will have no choice but to redeploy to Palestinian territory again, which is the situation they are trying to avoid in the first place by creating a separate Palestinian entity, and conduct operations against those firing the ordnance. Then the terrible cycle that is so lamentable but, sadly, so familiar starts yet again. Israeli soldiers are maimed and killed, Palestinian civilians are maimed and killed, most of the perpetrators escape after drawing the IDF into a fight in an urban environment where it is highly likely that one or more civilians will be killed in the fighting and a certainty that it will get Israel more bad press. Then the IDF will withdraw, in line with its desire to stay militarily disentangled from the Palestinian territories and the perpetrators will filter back into the area and rain ordnance down on the heads of Israeli civilians again.

The true solution to the problem is going to be very unpopular because it will take intensive effort over an indeterminate amount of time and for some Israelis it will require a fundamental reconfiguration of their beliefs about the conflict. The true solution, perhaps the only reliable solution, is for Israel to go out of its way to be a better neighbor to the Palestinian people than Hamas is. Hamas is popular with the Palestinian people because it provides goods and services that they are desperate for. Finding a way to improve the infrastructure of the West Bank is a start since the improvements are less likely to be vandalized. The next step is that they have got to find a workable strategy to root out the corruption in Fatah or they will have to simply abolish Fatah and try to have friendly powers work with the Palestinians to build up a nationalist organization that is about the welfare of the Palestinian people and not about foreign affairs. The key is that a partner must be created that Israel can trust with a military because the entire notion of a demilitarized Palestinian state is basically intellectually bankrupt logic that insures Israel never has to concede to a Palestinian state because a state cannot exist without a military.

Also, if Israel allows a Palestinian state with a military and that state behaves badly with its military, it could give Israel the excuse to defeat the Palestinians outright in a fair military conflict that was not instigated by them. The bottom line is that Israel is either going to condemn itself to be the babysitter of the Palestinian territories forever or it will set them free to become a full-fledged state and then the issue may find a conclusion, be it bloody or bloodless. However, the things that we have learned are this:

- There is chaos that kills Palestinians and Israelis when no one is in control of the West Bank and Gaza Strip
- Fatah is clearly not a worthy rival for Hamas at the ballot box because the Palestinian people are willing to accept violence and terrorism in return for Hamas' version of a less corrupt and more efficient government that provides life's necessities for them when given the choice
- Occupying the West Bank and Gaza Strip has been proven to be a losing strategy for Israel since 1967
- If there is to be something resembling a peaceful settlement the Palestinian people must form a state with a military that can dominate both the West Bank and Gaza Strip by force and elect a government that will either use that military to suppress groups like Hamas and promote a peaceful co-existence with Israel or use that military to go to war with Israel and the Palestinians can finally take responsibility for something in their lives: being pushed into Egypt and Jordan respectively and having to resettle there because Israel has won their former lands in a war they started and cannot appeal the outcome of.

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  • Regions: Jerusalem
  • Public Discussion (68)
Scott Isaacs

Has Netanyahu changed the rules so much that there's really no option but the status quo if we stay with his ideas about how the peace process should proceed?

  • 3 votes
Reply#1 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:08 AM EDT
John Houk-1191474

Actually Netanyahu has not changed any rules. It is the Obama Administration and the Bush Administration that changed the rules to create an Arab State called Palestine that has no right to exist.

Netanyahu's requirements are logical for Israeli security. The demand to recognize a Jewish State is way more than a bargaining chip. It is the core tenet of Islamic terrorist organizations that have affiliated themselves to the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians; i.e. the destruction of Israel. With all the rockets flowing into Israel ala Hamas (Gazastan) and from Hezbollah (Southern Lebanon) it is not a far reach to demand demilitarization of any entity that may be called Palestine.

Of course a militarized Palestine might be to Israel's benefit in the long run. As legitimate State attacking Israel, how could the anti-Zionist West and anti-Semitic Europe complain about Israel eradicating a nation that perpetuated an act of war?

  • 2 votes
#1.1 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:57 PM EDT
Scott Isaacs

John:

That's my point about demilitarization precisely. Sometimes the only thing that ends long-running conflicts like this is a final war where one side or the other finally wins. If the Palestinians have a sovereign govt and military and choose to make war on Israel, Israel can legally win the land in battle from the only people left making a claim to it and then they will have bordered not with restive territories that are angry with them but rather with two countries they have negotiated peace agreements with. And the Palestinian refugees will be the problem of their fellow Muslims in Egypt and Jordan and not Israel's problem any longer.

  • 1 vote
#1.2 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:57 PM EDT
krishna-167929

Has Netanyahu changed the rules so much that there's really no option but the status quo if we stay with his ideas about how the peace process should proceed?

The important thing to keep in mind here is the way politicians behave-- there's a lot of talk, but that doesn't mean its their final position.

This is even more tru in the mid-east. Have you ever been in an Arab market? Most westernersd ask the vendor the price of something-- do you think the first thing he says is his final position?

Most of what politicians there (both Israeli and Arab) say often has little relation to what they really want-- or what their final "bottom line" is...and a lot is for show.

  • 5 votes
#1.3 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 12:18 AM EDT
krishna-167929

Most of what politicians there (both Israeli and Arab) say often has little relation to what they really want-- or what their final "bottom line" is...and a lot is for show.

Btw, there's been a lot of talk of Obama pressuring Israel to freeze settlements. My guess is that Netanyahu will oprbably agree to it.

Why? Quite simply this-- its a great way to call the Arab's bluff. (They pretend they want peace-- but Israeli intransigence (refusing to implement the freeze) is in the way. Well-- what if he agrees to it? Then the Ball is in ther Arab's court :)

  • 4 votes
#1.4 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 2:33 AM EDT
Judge-574295Deleted
krishna-167929

It is Obama's goal to prove that America's values are not in conflict with Islam. In that, he shares the sentiments of George Bush.

And there are a lot of Americans who agree.

But I think that the reality is so stark-- that after a while, their denials-- will no longer work. It reminds me of "the Emperor Has No Clothes"...

  • 4 votes
#1.6 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 3:20 AM EDT
Judge-574295Deleted
Reply
firsty

and what about demilitarizing the settlements!?

  • 4 votes
Reply#2 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:41 AM EDT
Scott Isaacs

Obama wants them to go home... I suspect Obama is going to get his way after some posturing and carping.

  • 4 votes
#2.1 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:14 PM EDT
firsty

I suspect Obama is going to get his way after some posturing and carping.

if that happens, i'd be shocked. obama is a big deal in many places around the world, but i'm not sure he matches up well against the momentum and will of israeli politics.

and even when israel agrees to pull back the settlements, they still dont. or they move right back in. and the fact that the settlements are so heavily and proudly armed in the first place is not something that the US media talks about very much, and it's not like we're seeing a huge shift in public opinion on israel, and i dont anticipate obama acting very strongly without much public pressure.

then again, he does seem to have had a few pet projects that he sprung on us. a better approach to this problem would be wonderful.

  • 3 votes
#2.2 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:41 PM EDT
Scott Isaacs

firsty:

Obama and Netanyahu seem to be feeling each other out to decide how their mode of interaction is going to go. I'm not sure if Obama will stick to his guns but, as I said, he seems to want the settlements gone. Given the United States is Israel's sole major lifeline I don't see how Netanyahu could decline any "request" Obama made.

  • 2 votes
#2.3 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:34 PM EDT
firsty

Given the United States is Israel's sole major lifeline I don't see how Netanyahu could decline any "request" Obama made.

i agree in theory. but that would mean that the fate of israel/palestine peace has rested on the choices of american presidents - we've been israel's major lifeline for quite a while now. one major problem with israel is that it seems to act with impunity.

but as i type this, i realize that i cant hold the US responsible for israel's actions (as i do) without presuming that the US has some control over those actions. i guess the problem is that the US hasnt used its leverage to force change, which (to me) means that the US doesnt want change.

taking a hard line with israel would be huge. my pessimism in part stems from obama's reluctance to address the real issues with the economy, the "war on terror," torture, and health care, instead choosing band aid solutions. to be sure, we "ought" to be able to prevent israel from doing what it's been doing. but we dont seem willing, and i think that will is bigger than our president.

  • 2 votes
#2.4 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:48 PM EDT
Scott Isaacs

I would agree that the US has never used its status as an economic lifeline to Israel to force a peace deal... then again, PMs like Barak in the past have been far more amenable to a peace deal than Netanyahu. My thought is that the leverage is there if Obama wishes to use it but he will have to balance it with other issues in foreign and domestic policy as well.

  • 2 votes
#2.5 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:52 PM EDT
krishna-167929

Obama wants them to go home.

Scott-- the settlers already are home!

  • 3 votes
#2.6 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 12:20 AM EDT
krishna-167929

if that happens, i'd be shocked. obama is a big deal in many places around the world, but i'm not sure he matches up well against the momentum and will of israeli politics.

I could be wrong, but didn't Obama say something during the campaign-- criticizing how under Bush the U.S. was "imposing its will on other countries"-- and that if elected he wouldn't do that? If so, then surely he wouldn't impose his will on a soverign country such as Israel...???

  • 4 votes
#2.7 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 12:54 AM EDT
Scott Isaacs

It seems to me there is a substantive difference between using force to impose our will and giving a country an ultimatum about complying or losing our support, isn't there?

  • 2 votes
#2.8 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 6:59 PM EDT
krishna-167929

It seems to me there is a substantive difference between using force to impose our will and giving a country an ultimatum about complying or losing our support, isn't there?

And if an ultimatum is given to Israel-- and they don't comply-- then what?

The use of force against them? (Of course not)...so then what? Is the ultimatumum a paper tiger?

  • 3 votes
#2.9 - Fri Jul 3, 2009 6:21 PM EDT
Reply
UNCLEMIKE

There is a big downside to the new "Jewish State" language. It opens the door for the ugly word, "transfer", removing the Palestinians/Arabs within Israel to another location outside preferably to another existing Arab State. Lieberman favors this but he and Netanyahu also refuse to budge on the settlements. It is contradictory.

If that approach is legitimized by Netanyahu, he would also legitimize expulsion of settlers from the territories by a Palestinian State. Frankly I think both States are safer with mixed populations as long as there are two sovereign states. Palestine as a second class state is a ridiculous idea that will never work. Arafat was right to walk away from an offer that would turn Palestine into the world's largesst prison. Maybe status quo is acceptable for Netanyahu, it is no longer acceptable to the rest of the planet.

I suppose that this is grandstanding and raising the stakes for more bargaining leverage but if I were a betting man, I'd put my money on a major regional war in five years over another 50 years of stalemate. But this is too serious an issue to gamble on and I hope Netanyahu and the Palestinian factions figure it out.

  • 2 votes
Reply#3 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:58 PM EDT
Scott Isaacs

UNCLEMIKE:

Well, I think we're headed to a regional war unless we route these train tracks elsewhere. However, having studied history, there is a repetitive theme that ethnicities that form nations make a grasp for nationhood and either succeed or die in the process. An example are the Germans that lived in the free city of Danzig. Nazi Germany tried to reach out to have its sovereignty encompass the places where there were large German populations and German culture was the strongest influence except cultural influence and sovereignty are two different things. The Germans that lived in Prussia and other parts that now belong to Poland were executed, used for slave labor or raped dozens of times by the Soviets when they poured through or some combination of the three. It's a clash of cultures and unless some sort of real state for the Palestinians is agreed to and it doesn't make war on Israel with its military, I fear we're heading towards another one of those points.

  • 3 votes
#3.1 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:13 PM EDT
Reply
aRTieA

Gee guys, perhaps Bibi was just echoing Obama's pronouncements in his speech to AIPAC. May I quote...

Let me be clear. Israel’s security is sacrosanct. It is non-negotiable. The Palestinians need a state that is contiguous and cohesive, and that allows them to prosper — but any agreement with the Palestinian people must preserve Israel’s identity as a Jewish state, with secure, recognized and defensible borders. Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided.

The Iranian regime supports violent extremists and challenges us across the region. It pursues a nuclear capability that could spark a dangerous arms race and raise the prospect of a transfer of nuclear know-how to terrorists. Its president denies the Holocaust and threatens to wipe Israel off the map. The danger from Iran is grave, it is real, and my goal will be to eliminate this threat.

I had grown up without a sense of roots. My father was black; he was from Kenya, and he left us when I was 2. My mother was white; she was from Kansas, and I’d moved with her to Indonesia and then back to Hawaii. In many ways, I didn’t know where I came from. So I was drawn to the belief that you could sustain a spiritual, emotional and cultural identity. And I deeply understood the Zionist idea — that there is always a homeland at the center of our story.

  • 6 votes
Reply#4 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:25 PM EDT
Scott Isaacs

I must congratulate you for avoiding the 95% of the article that was about total demilitarization. LOL

  • 2 votes
#4.1 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:55 PM EDT
UNCLEMIKE

scott

LOL. Obviously 5% is important and 95% is unimportant. I just read an article about the UN language regarding the 1967 border. It centered around the omission of the word "the" , thus according to the author, rendering an entirely different interpretation of what those borders are.

Given that all UN positions on the settlements are regarded as invalid by the Netanyahu government, I'm not sure why the omission of an article like "the" renders the document valid. All this shifting is intended to weaken the peace process and deflect attention away from the majority of Israelis who want a peace deal.

But I suppose congratulations are in order, anyway.

  • 2 votes
#4.2 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:58 PM EDT
Scott Isaacs

UNCLEMIKE:

I knew of nothing else to do but congratulate him and laugh... it was a ballsy attempt to totally avoid a discussion with me by choosing the issue I conceded, emphasizing it and declaring victory. LOL Then again, I don't think it will get him any respect from those reading us right now.

  • 2 votes
#4.3 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:04 PM EDT
Judge-574295Deleted
Scott Isaacs

Judge:

Perhaps they will accept it and perhaps they won't. The point of this article is to indicate that until they accept creating Palestine as a full state with a military that can choose peace with Israel by putting internal opponents like Hamas under siege or choose war with Israel to settle the issue once and for all, Israel is not going to have peace. The root of the Palestinians claim to remain on the land is that they were unfortunate refugees caught in the middle of a war. If a full-fledged Palestinian state chooses to start a war with Israel, Israel can wipe them from the field, send them fleeing back into Egypt and Jordan and keep the land. Until Israel allows Palestine to become a full-fledged state they are doomed to coping with a dependent people in their midst and we have seen the decades of slow aggression and death that has caused.

  • 2 votes
#4.5 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:40 PM EDT
krishna-167929

Perhaps they will accept it and perhaps they won't.

There's no perhaps-- even Abbas has said they won't.

When the Palestinians say they want a Palestinian state, they do not mean one next to an Israeli state. They want all of it (including what is now currently Israel).

Israel had occupied Gaza. In 2005 they left. That's when Hamas started firing rockets in earnest (video).

  • 6 votes
#4.6 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 12:28 AM EDT
ANNA-NYC

they do not mean one next to an Israeli state.

Exactly. Not next to Israel, instead of Israel

  • 3 votes
#4.7 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 3:54 PM EDT
Reply
jfxgillis

Scott:

I voted No. Netanyahu is just squirming, stuck between his right-wing coalition and Obama.

  • 3 votes
Reply#5 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:06 PM EDT
Scott Isaacs

Jack:

I think he knows that he has no choice because it's go along with Obama or go it alone in the Middle East and, as George Friedman says, I don't see how they do the latter. I do think that he was trying to change policy but had little to no hope it would work.

  • 2 votes
#5.1 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:14 PM EDT
UNCLEMIKE

I voted no. He is trying to maintain his coalition and distract attention away from the divisions within Israeli politics. I agree that it's a desperate last ditch effort to gain ground before the clock runs out.

If he changed anything, it was by putting some spin on reality, much Cheney/Bush on Iraq.

  • 2 votes
#5.2 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:07 PM EDT
jfxgillis

Scott:

I don't think he was even trying to do that. He was pretending to try to do that to mollify his domestic righty supporters.

  • 4 votes
#5.3 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:11 PM EDT
Scott Isaacs

Jack:

I've read that he heads an extremely fragile coalition. Can you add a little depth and color analysis to that?

  • 2 votes
#5.4 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:12 PM EDT
Reply
Better Careful

"Settlements" my butt! When I use that word certain images come to mind. Some of those "settlements" have populations over 50,000. They are not settlements, they are cities. There are over one quarter of a million Israelis occupying Palestine. "Settlements" is a propaganda piece as it's used today. Israel has no intention of permitting a State for the people of Palestine, save for an open-air concentration camp in Gaza, where food, water, money, and employment are rationed by Israel, under threat of death. That's their end-game, there is no other explanation that has held credibility over the last few years. Nothing else explains their behavior; nothing else adds up.

    Reply#6 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:26 PM EDT
    Judge-574295Deleted
    Scott Isaacs

    Judge:

    Palestinians need a Garibaldi and then their own legitimate govt. Netanyahu's suggestion should be called what it is regardless of his importance in Middle East politics and his suggestion is complete idiocy. A demilitarized Palestinian govt will simply make things worse because it will be targeted for violence as a "Zionist" and American puppet govt sent to control the territory for the two powers. If that is Netanyahu's real idea of peace, then as far as I'm concerned the United States should just step back and let them figure it out on their own or kill each other because Israel's leader has stopped even trying to be constructive.

    • 3 votes
    #6.2 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:44 PM EDT
    Judge-574295Deleted
    Scott Isaacs

    Judge:

    I wouldn't consider Palestinians as fit to have or run a country.

    There are many people that aren't fit to have or run a country that have them anyway.

    When they can go for a long period without terrorism, without launching missiles, and an even longer period where they do not teach their children hate, then the conversation could begin.

    Without a military, how do you expect Palestinian moderates to assert their will over the extremists? Mental telepathy?

    When any Palestinian could say, without being killed, that there should be a Jewish State of Israel.

    You say this focused on Israel. Do you realize that a Palestinian could be killed for just about anything by another Palestinian and if the attacker's clan is stronger it will go without justice? That will only be fixed when the govt is strong enough to force the rule of law on the unruly in society.

    Or, you could state the obvious in another way. Palestinians recognize Israel, and accept that they will have no military for at least a quarter century.

    I will guarantee you that if any Palestinian state starts off without a military, they will remain without a miliary because it is in both Egypt and Jordan's best interest that they remain demilitarized. They are potential targets #2 and #3 after Israel.

    One offers a suicide pact, knowing that it pleases the American left, but Palestinians refuse anyway.

    Past peace deals have been passed over because their acceptance would have meant assassination of the Palestinian leader that accepted them. Without a military and rule of law, this never, ever gets resolved.

    The other offers the actual limits, knowing that Palestinians will refuse, and that Palestinians couldn't back up an acceptance either way.

    The other doesn't offer actual limits. It creates a useless appendage state to the State of Israel that the IDF will have to use force to keep the peace in. How keen do you think the people of Israel are to create a Palestinian entity that they will have to send their military back into, most likely fairly frequently?

    He acts like Israel's survival is at stake, a bit more at stake than Obama's need to be loved by Muslims.

    If he acts that way, he's not looking at the situation right-side up. The way to ensure Israel's survival is to give Palestine a chance to flourish independently or start a war where it will be snuffed out and Israel will control everything that rockets now come from. One way or the other, peace with the Palestinians will have been achieved.

    That might be important to Obama, but what is the official US interest in having a Palestinian state? Be the first to answer that, and then back it up without needing tooth fairies and magic wands. What is it that Obama thinks improves the US position in the world, with a Palestinian State?

    If Palestinians are changed from helpless victims into a people that are seen as responsible for all actions in their territories, they will cease to be as popular a cause for the moderate Muslim world to give their wealth to support. They give to Palestine like America gives to Africa. Israel will also not be seen so terribly on the world stage because it will be Palestinians fighting Hamas and killing their human shields and not Israelis doing so.

    • 3 votes
    #6.4 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:52 PM EDT
    Judge-574295Deleted
    Scott Isaacs

    Judge:

    Why justifies your vision of a sovereign Palestininian military controlled by democrats, and not one that is used to control democrats, like in Iran?

    I'm a rationalist at heart. Relatively peaceful countries from a domestic perspective always have an internal fight in their past in which the significant opponents were tamed. In America it was first the Revolutionary War where the Loyalists were crushed with the British and then in the Civil War it was the slaveholding aristocratic minority that was hammered into the ground like a tent stake. What justifies my vision of a sovereign Palestinian military controlled by democrats as opposed to one used to suppress democrats like Iran? The fact that we in the West are democrats and force is the great equalizer. Lincoln said that we should hope that right makes might and we believe a free society to be right. Why shouldn't a Palestinian military fighting for that be established?

    We apparently agree on Egypt's and Jordan's ambivalence, but what advantage is contained for Jordan and Egypt, in a Palestinian state, that would make it easier than it is now to keep heavy weapons out of a Palestinian state that would presumably border Syria and Lebanon? Would they use mental telepathy to accomplish that?

    No, just force. When you're confronted with a problem in which certain segments of society, like Hamas, keep wielding weapons against the sovereign govt the sovereign govt uses its military to jail or kill these entities to the last man. It's the heart of monopoly of force as put forward by Weber. The problem to be dealt with isn't how to keep heavy weapons out of the hands of those that want to use them... the problem to be dealt with is how to rid Palestine of those that want heavy weapons to use in the first place. They either have to surrender that desire or lose their freedom and/or lives. Very simply equation. Kill the demand, not the supply.

    How do you envision Obama replacing the security Israel has in disputed space that they control, with your Palestinan army in that space, and after Obama has ensured that Israel is impossible to defend? US troops? Do you want that? Would ..should...Israel trust date-certain Obama's long term commitment? Would a congressional resolution supported by Democrats in backing up the president have any value to Israel? What if congress decides later that Obama lied?

    I will readily admit to not knowing Israel's terrain as well as I should, but what is the difference in a war they won where they didn't control the Palestinian areas in the beginning and a war in which a Palestinian military controls those areas at the start? How does handing the West Bank and Gaza Strip to a single sovereign govt with a military make Israel militarily indefensible?

    • 1 vote
    #6.6 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:56 PM EDT
    krishna-167929

    Israel will also not be seen so terribly on the world stage because it will be Palestinians fighting Hamas and killing their human shields and not Israelis doing so.

    The Palestinians arer already killing and torturing each other:

    Palestinian victims of Hamas swear revenge

    "SHADI Bakr Ahmad gingerly eased his legless torso into two new plastic limbs and vowed they would one day walk him back to his brutal destiny in Gaza.

    The Fatah man and his 14 comrades in rehabilitation have barely six legs left between them, after being mutilated by their Hamas rivals during the violent takeover of power last June. All have unfinished business: they want to get back on their makeshift feet soon to hunt down the men who maimed them.

    Hamas commits acts of terrible brutality against their fellow Palestinians:

    The Grand Inquisitors

    "Up to a hundred Palestinians in Gaza who have defied house arrest orders have been tortured in children's hospitals and schools converted into interrogation centers. People have been shot in the legs or had their hands broken. The campaign has been described as a "new massacre". One victim had his eyes put out. No one was safe from the torturers, not even those attending funerals.

    • 6 votes
    #6.7 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 12:36 AM EDT
    krishna-167929

    where food, water, money, and employment are rationed by Israel,

    And, of couirse Egypt-- you somehow forgot to mention that :)

    • 5 votes
    #6.8 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 12:58 AM EDT
    krishna-167929

    I'm a rationalist at heart.

    OK.

    But what makes you think the Palestinians have the same values as you do? :)

    There are big differences in values. Do you support forced female circumcision? How about so-called "honour-killing"? Stoning upon accusation of having committed adultery (for women-- the man goes free).

    Of course I'm being silly here-- I'm sure you don't. But in that part of the world, many do. Do you really expect them to change? (Actually, it seems to opposite is happening-- there are now reports of honor killings in Britain. Denmark passed a law against female circumcision-- they never had one before-- can you guess why they deicded they now need one?)

    Part of the problem westerners have is that they assume societies wiorldwide have the same values we do. Well-- some do, some don't.

    Every once in a while someone on NV says "The Palestinians want the same things we do". Well, IMO, in mosdt cases that's just not so.

    Relatively peaceful countries from a domestic perspective always have an internal fight in their past in which the significant opponents were tamed. In America it was first the Revolutionary War where the Loyalists were crushed with the British and then in the Civil War it was the slaveholding aristocratic minority that was hammered into the ground like a tent stake. What justifies my vision of a sovereign Palestinian military controlled by democrats as opposed to one used to suppress democrats like Iran? The fact that we in the West are democrats and force is the great equalizer. Lincoln said that we should hope that right makes might and we believe a free society to be right. Why shouldn't a Palestinian military fighting for that be established?

    • 3 votes
    #6.9 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 1:06 AM EDT
    Judge-574295Deleted
    Scott Isaacs

    krishna:

    But what makes you think the Palestinians have the same values as you do? :)

    Isn't that part of the genius of this idea? If they don't have the same values they will start a war with the people that share our values and the latter will wipe the former out in a legit fight.

    • 2 votes
    #6.11 - Sun Jul 5, 2009 2:34 AM EDT
    krishna-167929

    How does handing the West Bank and Gaza Strip to a single sovereign govt with a military make Israel militarily indefensible?

    Israel is a tiny state-- about the size of New Jersey. however, the middle is only about ten miles wide. here's a map of Israel the light yellow colour is Israel proper)-- notice the area just north of Tel Aviv-- ther distance between the West Bank (which would probably be part of a new "Palestine") and the sea is about ten miles.

    A concentrated military strike the could cut the country in two. (Also, further south-- a pincers movement from Gaza and the Hebron area could also bi-sect the country...and again, this would put more Southern areas in range of terrorist missiles).

    And-- thae entire narrow section-- from, say, Rishon-Le-Ziyyon to Hadera-- would be along a norrow strip-- all of which would be in range of Arab artillery...and all of which woiuld be a short drive from hostile territory. Up until recently, the rockets the Gazans were firing could only reach the small town of Sderot-- now they have longer range rockets thant can ht Ashdod. But if they had control of the west bank, Tel Aviv and other heavily populated areas would be in range...

    • 3 votes
    #6.12 - Sun Jul 5, 2009 5:19 PM EDT
    krishna-167929

    To get a better idea of the tiny size of Israel, here are some size comparison maps--

    1. Israel & the Muslim world

    2. Israel and Egypt

    3. Israel and Saudi Arabia

    Btw-- there are some 20+ Arab countries!...

    Some 50+ Muslim countries in all...which also explains why the U.N. always votes to condemn Israel...(and also why its so helpless to do anything about the dictstorial Arab government in the Sudan...)

    • 3 votes
    #6.13 - Sun Jul 5, 2009 5:28 PM EDT
    Reply
    DarthVSchw

    How does a sovereign state of Palestine threaten Egypt and Jordan, or any other country in that region?

      Reply#7 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:12 AM EDT
      Scott Isaacs

      Egypt and Jordan both have a very checkered history with their fellow Muslims, the Palestinians. The PLO was creating such a ruckus that the previous Jordanian king used his military to massacre them and Egypt has suppressed them many times at the border they share with Gaza. They have abused the Palestinians as well and would rather not see them have more power than they currently have.

      • 2 votes
      #7.1 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:10 PM EDT
      Judge-574295Deleted
      Scott Isaacs

      Isn't that an argument in favor of a Palestinian state with a military? Use it as a magnet to draw the radicals in, let them declare war and then eliminate them. Their advantage as terrorists is that they do not mass in one place because Western-designed armies are too good at putting firepower on specific squares on map grids, destroying anything there. If you can get them to collect around a central point, isn't that an opportunity rather than a problem?

      • 2 votes
      #7.3 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:58 PM EDT
      Judge-574295Deleted
      krishna-167929

      How does a sovereign state of Palestine threaten Egypt and Jordan, or any other country in that region?

      The fact of another soverign state in and of itself wouldn't. (Although Jordan is a majority Palestinian state-- occupied and ruled by non-Palestinian Hashemites-- if there was an independent Pali state, there might be calls for an end to the occupation of Jordan-- and to annex Jordan to Palestine...)

      The problem is, and both Egypt and Jordan know it-- a Pali state would be another "Hamastan". Look what happened when Israel ended the occupation of Gaza and Palestinains there were able to rule themselves-- Gaza is now a hellhole run by Islamist crazies!

      Hamas is affiliated with Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood-- a group responsible for several terror attacks within Egypt...who want to overthrow the Egyptian government. The last thing Egypt needs is a fundamentalist Islamic Emirate on its border!

      A while back Gazans knocked down the Apartheid wall Egypt built on its Gaza border-- and flooded into Egypt. If you'd really like to know what the Egyptians think about the Hamas and its rule of Gaza, check out this video -- a retired Egyptian general explains in detial.

      • 5 votes
      #7.5 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 12:45 AM EDT
      krishna-167929

      Isn't that an argument in favor of a Palestinian state with a military? Use it as a magnet to draw the radicals in, let them declare war and then eliminate them.

      They already control one part of it-- Gaza. And, they have been making conventional warfare, not terrorism, firing rockets at Israel, and shooting at Israelis, occasionally murdering one or two. But when Israel does retaliate (video)-- the world condemns them.

      • 5 votes
      #7.6 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 12:51 AM EDT
      krishna-167929

      How does a sovereign state of Palestine threaten Egypt and Jordan, or any other country in that region?

      Here's more information on the subject. Dry Bones is the blog of an Israeli political cartoonist-- this one addresses the Jordanian fears:

      The "East Bank":

      If you call the West Bank "Judea and Samaria" you are a Zionist. So if you call Jordan "The East Bank"...who are you?

      • 6 votes
      #7.7 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 1:20 AM EDT
      Scott Isaacs

      krishna:

      The problem is, and both Egypt and Jordan know it-- a Pali state would be another "Hamastan". Look what happened when Israel ended the occupation of Gaza and Palestinains there were able to rule themselves-- Gaza is now a hellhole run by Islamist crazies!

      Which we unfortunately aided and abetted in. We pushed democracy for the Gaza Strip and then, when they elected Hamas whose constitution puts it in a constant state of war with Israel, we didn't uphold the universal dictum that elections have consequences.

      • 1 vote
      #7.8 - Sun Jul 5, 2009 2:37 AM EDT
      Scott Isaacs

      krishna:

      They already control one part of it-- Gaza. And, they have been making conventional warfare, not terrorism, firing rockets at Israel, and shooting at Israelis, occasionally murdering one or two. But when Israel does retaliate (video)-- the world condemns them.

      The Yom Kippur war predated my existence by 9 years so I don't remember the coverage of it. Was Israel blamed for fighting back against invasion?

      • 1 vote
      #7.9 - Sun Jul 5, 2009 2:38 AM EDT
      krishna-167929

      Which we unfortunately aided and abetted in. We pushed democracy for the Gaza Strip and then, when they elected Hamas whose constitution puts it in a constant state of war with Israel, we didn't uphold the universal dictum that elections have consequences.

      I have come to see that basically, there are only 2 possibities for an Arab country:

      1. A secular dictatorship (ex: Saddam's Iraq)...

      2. Or a fundamentalist theocracy (Iran, Saudi Arabia).

      Democracy is not an option. If democracy is attempted, ultimately the people vote in a fundamentalist theocracy (Hamas)..or a dictator who, once in power, becomes more and more totalitarian. Sometimes this takes a while (Iraq-- which is also a special case because of U.S. presence..or Lebanon.. also a special case due to so many factions and a huge Christian minority).

      • 3 votes
      #7.10 - Sun Jul 5, 2009 5:33 PM EDT
      Reply
      Grace-580101

      I have no comments on Netanyahu's pre-condition proposal, nor about the settlements and the problem of Hamas and Fatahs but I am most concerned about the political game of " cat and mouse " , and the US as intermediary in their consistent problem.

        Reply#8 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:10 AM EDT
        Scott Isaacs

        It is our's too, unfortunately, since al Qaeda is partially driven by Palestine's current issues.

        • 1 vote
        #8.1 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:13 PM EDT
        krishna-167929

        It is our's too, unfortunately, since al Qaeda is partially driven by Palestine's current issues.

        Partly. But if the problem were solved, it really wouldn't moderate al-Qaeda in any way. IMO, they were weakened considerably by their huge loss in Iraq-- they have given up there-- but they are now focusing on Agpak, and moving into Somalia. They want to re-establish the Caliphate-- Israel-Palestine is only a tiny part.

        • 5 votes
        #8.2 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 12:47 AM EDT
        Scott Isaacs

        krishna:

        I disagree, my friend. Now that we are withdrawing from urban areas in Iraq and leaving security to the Iraqis, al Qaeda is looking to rebound. They are, however, setting up in all the other areas you mentioned... as well as Morocco.

          #8.3 - Sun Jul 5, 2009 2:48 AM EDT
          krishna-167929

          I disagree, my friend. Now that we are withdrawing from urban areas in Iraq and leaving security to the Iraqis, al Qaeda is looking to rebound. They are, however, setting up in all the other areas you mentioned... as well as Morocco.

          Well, you may be right-- our withdrawal may cause an al-Qaeda resurgence in Iraq.

          But they are definitely focusing on other areas-- particularly the horn of Africa. (Whether that's "instesad of Iraq" or "in addition to', only time will tell).

          btw-- there are some "counter-terrorism experts" who feel that in the future the main threat (worldwide) will be from Hizb'Allah, and not al-Qaeda...(of course it could be from both).

          • 3 votes
          #8.4 - Sun Jul 5, 2009 5:39 PM EDT
          Judge-574295Deleted
          Reply
          greg-709692

          It really doesn't matter much. Israel always seems to give what is asked only for it to get changed during or after the process anyways.

          If its good for Israel I'm all for it. The others have no clue what they really want. That's been proven over and over.

          • 4 votes
          Reply#9 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 4:03 PM EDT
          krishna-167929

          The others have no clue what they really want.

          Actually, they do.

          If you're wondering what Hamas really wants-- here's a short video that explains it quite well (& yes--- its different than what most westerners believe).

          • 5 votes
          #9.1 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 5:20 PM EDT
          greg-709692

          So they want the Muslim Brotherhood to rule once more. Is that what its saying.

          A tyrannical brotherhood bent on killing and Shari'a Law?

          • 5 votes
          #9.2 - Thu Jul 2, 2009 5:26 PM EDT
          krishna-167929

          Yup :-(

          • 3 votes
          #9.3 - Sun Jul 5, 2009 5:52 PM EDT
          Reply
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