Newsvine
  • Welcome
  • Help
  • Report Bug
  • Conversation Tracker
  • Your Column
  • Replies
  • Friends
Type Comments Since You Last CheckedArticle Source Last Checked Stop Tracking All Clear Tracking All
advertisement
Log In | Register
Close the Login Panel
Existing users log in below. New users please register for a free account.

New Users:

Existing Users:

E-Mail:
Password:
Forgot Password?
Please enter the e-mail address or domain name you registered with:
E-Mail/Domain:
Back to Login
Log Out
  • Top News
  • Local News
  • World
  • U.S.
  • Sports
  • Politics
  • Tech
  • Entertainment
  • Science
  • Business
  • Health
  • Odd News
  • More
    • Arts
    • Education
    • Environment
    • Fashion
    • History
    • Home & Garden
    • Not News
    • Religion
    • Travel
Visit Scott Isaacs's column >>

SCOTT ISAACS

Transplanted Kentuckian living in Ohio - GO BIG BLUE!
Articles Posted: 268  Links Seeded: 2160
Member Since: 6/2007  Last Seen: 12/24/2011

What is Newsvine?

Updated continuously by citizens like you, Newsvine is an instant reflection of what the world is talking about at any given moment.

Get a Free Account
Help
Fun Stuff
  • Your Clippings
  • Leaderboard
  • E-Mail Alerts
  • Top of the Vine
  • Newsvine Live
  • Newsvine Archives
  • The Greenhouse
  • Recommended Articles
  • Wall of Vineness
Put a Seed Newsvine link on your own site

Supreme Leader Of Iran Makes Tactical Mistake, Opens Door For American Intervention

Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:39 AM EDT
politics, barack-obama, iran, united-states, election, president, america, campaign, foreign-policy, mahmoud-ahmadinejad, cheating, mir-hossein-mousavi, ayatollah-ali-khamenei, rigged
By Scott Isaacs

Live Poll

Did Ayatollah Khamenei make some mistakes in this election?

View Results
  • 43940
    Yes, time will tell how critical they are
    62%
  • 43941
    No, this is simply one rigged election among many
    38%

VoteTotal Votes: 26

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, piss be upon him.

advertisement

The supreme leader of Iran, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, has made a miscalculation in how he handled the Iranian presidential election. The next few days will determine if it was just an embarrassing mistake or if it will threaten the very existence of the theocratic regime that he runs.

It all started with Khamenei demurring when it came to disqualifying Ahmedinejad's chief opponent, the reformist Mir Hossein Moussavi. The world was watching and turnout of registered voters was expected to be extremely large. The reformist movement became attached to this wartime Prime Minister (Moussavi had been the PM for nearly all of the Iran-Iraq War which ran from 1980-88) as its icon symbolizing change and moderates had looked to Moussavi's organization of a bond-based economy during the war which enabled the country to fund its military with hope as Iran's economy is mired in 25% inflation (the real number is likely more, this is the number that Ahmadinejad admitted to during the campaign) and a lack of available housing that is driving rents in the capital of Tehran to dizzyingly painful heights.

It has been suggested to me by an astute friend here on the Vine that Khamenei left Moussavi in to avoid the appearance of impropriety, so that Khamenei could later say that Ahmadinejad won fair and square and not have that look to be a complete lie. This is a no-no in volatile countries like Iran. You cannot give the people hope and then take it away from them in such a way that they realize you have boned them. Khamenei, whose government officially claimed that Ahmadinejad won two-thirds of the vote, committed that mistake by leaving Moussavi in and then issuing such a bald-faced lie that even the least-perceptive Iranian could see was not true. Allowing Moussavi to stay in and then confirming that he was indeed chosen by the electorate by issuing such an unconvincing lie assured some sort of protest and the reality is that it has resulted in violence between Iranian police and paramilitary forces and reformist supporters of Moussavi and/or opponents of Ahmadinejad.

Another mistake made by Khamenei was to take down the SMS (text messaging) systems throughout the entire country on Wednesday night (the Iranian government runs the only mobile phone company in the nation) and not restoring it. Were he trying to torpedo the election against Moussavi he should have had the SMS system go off mysteriously late Thursday as Moussavi's campaign was shifting into its highest gear to finish the race by shuffling their resources to press their advantage on Election Day. Instead, Khamenei allowed the SMS system to be "broken" on Wednesday night. Had he been thinking about good strategy, Khamenei would have had the system "break" on Thursday evening and remain broken through Election Day. He would allow it to flicker to life a few times after the voting was completed and then it would encounter more troubles the day after the election. Then, when the official result was announced, if violence broke out he could keep it off line citing security measures since he believed the violent protesters to be using text messaging to organize their anti-government campaign. Instead, Khamenei foolishly allowed it to be broken on Wednesday night which gave Moussavi supporters all of Thursday (which in Iran is a day of rest for a political campaign because campaigning is forbidden by law on the day before the election) to get angrier and angrier which motivated them to go out and work even harder for Moussavi on Election Day and, ultimately, build up a large reserve of anger that they are currently turning to with the intent of dethroning Ahmadinejad and running roughshod over any obstacle blocking their accomplishment of that which includes the government.

Khamenei also made a mistake when it came to the counting of the votes. Past elections have featured votes trickling in a few hours after the polls close and subsequently the amount of votes coming in grows. This election featured a higher turnout percentage than the most recent elections (voter turnout was pegged at around 85% of all registered voters in Iran) and yet this did not make the system less efficient. According to the official vote tallies, all the extra votes made it more efficient. Millions upon millions of votes came in almost immediately after the close of the polls and boosting the appearance of impropriety, the busiest election in recent Iranian history was quickly officiated by the government as a 62.6%-33.75% landslide victory for Ahmadinejad. That means that the government took in and assessed 39,270,000 votes, analyzed them and established a very specific percentage by which the reformist candidate lost. There is a certain amount of indignant outrage in election scandals that can be negated by those doing the vote-rigging making it appear as though the results were not predetermined. Khamenei simply skipped over good drama and had the government issue less than half a day after the polls closed what it had concluded the results would be before a single vote was cast. Part of the anger that is currently creating tension in Iran is anger fueled by many Iranians knowing that their government thinks them so stupid that there is no need to have a pause between a hard-fought election in which the pro-reform side shed blood, sweat and tears campaigning for and their government does not have enough respect for them to attempt to conceal that it rigged the election in Ahmadinejad's favor.

Khamenei made his most recent mistake with regards to the election just hours ago. Khamenei obviously has the power to intervene in the election as the country's Supreme Leader. He could have had the government float its preposterous little story of an Ahmadinejad landslide victory powered by populism and then decided what side to take after these clashes between the government and pro-reform citizens. Instead, Khamenei urged all Iranians to unite behind President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and called the election results a "divine assessment." It was clearly divine because to accurately count the votes in the timespan the government did, they would need Allah's direct intervention. Khamenei has now blessed the election results and said that this election in which the government willfully and boldly cheated the reformists out of a win without any concern for concealing their cheating is consistent with the best practices of Islam, a religion that forbids Muslims (and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad presents himself as a very pious Muslim man) from cheating and stealing against other Muslims. To Iranians that are observant Muslims who supported Moussavi, Khamenei has committed blasphemy in their eyes because they know that the government rigged the election. Khamenei derives his power from status that is conferred upon him by religion and for him to directly tie this election fraud to Allah that will undercut his prestige as a religious figure in some Iranians' eyes. It remains to be seen how many will lose respect for him because of this decision, but if many lose respect for him because of this stance on the election it could hasten some sort of political change in the country.

Khamenei seems to have forgotten the simple truths of the Iranian system of governance. The people of Iran believe their government to be a government that is based on the tenets of Islam where almost unlimited power is bequeathed to Khamenei because of his religious standing and in which they are entitled to choose some of their government representatives such as the President of the country. It matters not who the president of Iran is because Ayatollah Ali Khamenei metaphorically has his hand stuffed up the president's backside. The president is the puppet of the Ayatollah Khamenei and it matters not who acts as the puppet. Khamenei could have wisely put Moussavi on his lap and the show would have gone along without a hitch. Instead, he has endeavored for unknown reasons to hang on for dear life to a very unpopular president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, while making many in the public angry and resentful of Khamenei's choice. His choices from the very beginning have been strategically unsound from not disqualifying Moussavi to begin with, allowing televised debates in which Ahmadinejad broke Iranian political taboos & offended many Iranian citizens, interrupting the tools of the Moussavi campaign even though he knew that the election would be fixed, and insulting Moussavi supporters by saying that the government violating their rights by openly ignoring their votes & making up its own numbers was blessed by Allah. Khamenei has created an opening in the minds of the Iranian people, making many more than before seriously question whether the Khamenei government is truly tolerable. It is this opening that America should utilize to offer strong but subtle (read: invisible) support to the pro-Moussavi partisans to take their fight to the Khamenei government and to reason with their fellow Iranians that Ahmadinejad is not only a thief and liar but that he is also not a pious Muslim and that Khamenei's choice to side with him means that Khamenei must be convinced to side with Moussavi or he must be replaced. What passes for moderates in Iran need our help right now to continue on in the face of government opposition and I believe we must absolutely give it. President Obama needs to sign a highly classified presidential finding that regime change is our top priority in Iran starting with helping Moussavi partisans to dismount Ahmadinejad from the presidency and extending to ousting the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei in the long term. Moussavi and his supporters are the best chance in ten years to improve Iran and American relations with the country: we must take it because I may not see an opportunity as good as this again in my lifetime. If we have success in overturning Ahmadinejad's false victory, Moussavi's supporters can provide a foundation upon which Iran can build a more secular democracy that gives more credence to the rule of law.

  • Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.

Back To Top | Front Page

Published to:

  • Scott Isaacs's Column, All of Newsvine
  • Groups: 2008: Barack Obama, 2008: Fred Thompson, 2008: Mike Huckabee, 2008: Mitt Romney, 2008: John McCain, 2008: Michael Bloomberg, America's Need For Change, Arab World, Attention Whores, Bar Room Debates, Censored Material Discussion, Centervine, Citizens Against Apathy, Civility, Respect, and Honor, Committee of Public Safety , Counterterrorism, DemGuys, Democrats, Down With Tin Horn Dictators, Election News, Free Thinkers, Grounded for Life, Gut Check America, Heated Debate, Higher Ground, Journalism on Newsvine, Left of Center, Liberal Libertarians, Mid-East Vine, Newsvine Election Coverage, Newsvine International, ObamaExpress, ObamaVine, Open Mic, Open Source Intelligence, Outraged Americans For Justice, Political Analysis, Politics in USA, Power to The People!, Question Authority, Respectful Debate, The Big 2008 Election, The Bigger 2008 Election , To MSNBC, Tricuspidata, Unoffocial Vine Vol. II, US News and Views , Worldviews, Writers
  • Regions: Tehran
  • Public Discussion (42)
Scott Isaacs

One ponders the unknowable: how angry are the pro-reform Iranians and what, if anything, will it inspire them to undertake?

  • 3 votes
Reply#1 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:47 AM EDT
Syntactic Tree

One does not challenge Ayatollah Khamenei. Ask Salmon Rushdie.

I think we all understand your outrage at this mockery of an "election," but what can the United States do? What type of covert help are you suggesting?

    #1.1 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:00 AM EDT
    Scott Isaacs

    Syntactic Tree:

    I don't know that I'm outraged. I'm just an observer. I'm disappointed because Moussavi is "pro-American" as one can get and still run to be the leader of a country that calls us "The Great Satan and the Ayatollah Sh*tbird prevented him from taking power by the letter of the law in Iran.

    I think that if Iran comes to military blows with the United States that may trigger a coup since, ostensibly, Moussavi's attitude towards America would have prolonged diplomatic relations with America and Khamenei would be blamed for exercising his unchecked total power to not only break the law by stealing the election but even if he didn't directly orchestrate Ahmadinejad's theft of the election he blessed it as divinely inspired. One thing that has become abundantly clear: Khamenei has attached himself at the hip to Ahmadinejad and it is possible that further ineffective rule by Ahmadinejad could cause a revolt against the entire system.

    • 2 votes
    #1.2 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:10 AM EDT
    Bill Harrison

    Scott, this amounts to much ado about nothing. So long as the mullahs have the guns, things won't change in Iran.

    • 2 votes
    #1.3 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 7:59 AM EDT
    Scott Isaacs

    Bill:

    For the short term, the mullahs have the power. However, I believe I read that 1/3 of the voters in Iran were under 30. I think that Khamenei has given the up-and-coming political class a reason to hold strong resentment against the governing of an Ayatollah with this election and it's possible that the society could age out of rule by people like Ahmadinejad & Khamenei. I can't be sure how a potential revolution would play out, in fact it would be foolish of me to speculate, but I believe that serious damage has been done to the current ruling class' image within Iran that could be exploited in the future.

    • 1 vote
    #1.4 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:35 AM EDT
    Bill Harrison

    Here's the problem, Scott. All of what you say about Iran's young, well-educated urban population is very true. But that said, the mullahs make sure that the Pasdaran and armed forces are well-compensated. You will recall that the Soviet Union only collapsed because the armed forces were unwilling to move against Boris Yeltsin. Until a similar day arrives in Iran, the regime (sclerotic and hated though it may be) will go on.

    Now insofar as our instituting "regime-change" in Iran, I can only echo Nofluer's comment below and add to that the Pandora's Box that would be opened in such a move, i.e., closing down the Straits of Hormuz, Iranian-backed and instituted violence against both US and Iraqi forces in Iraq, etc, etc.

    • 2 votes
    #1.5 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:49 PM EDT
    XNihil0Zer0

    It's not as if the Shah's army lacked funding. How much force can the Ayatollahs afford to use? Another Black Friday might bring about another revolution. I believe that they, better than anyone else, understand the effectiveness of a lot of pissed off Persians. It's estimated that protests during the revolution mobilized 10% of the population. There isn't much that can be done against a mob that size, unless those in power are willing to commit a genocide on a scale which will ensure international intervention. It would be nice to get a better idea of the scale of these protests, but with communications hindered, getting that information might take awhile.

      #1.6 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:58 PM EDT
      Nofluer

      A standard rule of thumb is that if a country's inflation rate goes over 20%, there will be a new government soon. Iran's inflation rate was 30% last October. It has since fallen somewhat - it was 15% in May... but that's not good enough.

      I'm thinking that the ayatolla and his hand puppet are toast.

      • 2 votes
      #1.7 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:05 PM EDT
      Reply
      DarthVSchw

      Why would you think it would be anything but fraud if election monitors are not allowed to mointor ther results. I also thought it was rather strange the speed at which results came in...considering I'm sitting here in the Lake State with only one senator seven months after the election.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#2 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:52 AM EDT
      Scott Isaacs

      DVS:

      Yes, the speed of the results was what made it completely preposterous to Iranians. I could see allowing election monitors being argued as some sort of neo-colonialism (which is bull@!$%#, but still) from Western countries trying to tell Iran how to run their democracy. However, the speed of the returns speaks for itself. Supposedly 85% of all registered voters came out (which is like 39M people as I pointed out in the article) and the Iranian govt is going to claim to their people and the world that they've counted all the votes in a matter of hours and that Ahmadinejad conveniently won more than 50% of the vote which avoids a run-off too? That lie is so poorly constructed as to be comical.

      I'm curious to see if that level of disrespect for the average pro-Moussavi voter's intellect will goad them into some kind of action besides being depressed the govt screwed them...

      • 2 votes
      #2.1 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:37 AM EDT
      Reply
      Nofluer

      It is this opening that America should utilize to offer strong but subtle (read: invisible) support to the pro-Moussavi partisans to take their fight to the Khamenei government

      No. America should stay the hell out of this internal Iranian situation. Period.

      • 4 votes
      Reply#3 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:49 AM EDT
      Scott Isaacs

      Could you expand on why you believe we should sit this out? I don't mean to be annoying, but I laid out my proposal of why we should strike while the iron is hot. I'm curious to hear your argument that we should allow it to cool and remain the same shape.

      • 1 vote
      #3.1 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:36 AM EDT
      Scarlet Termite

      My take on Nofluer's post is that it seems that when the United States plays those games it blows up in our face, like Panama, Iraq, Iran with the Shah, etc. I believe any US encouragement should be in the form of speeches that basically say, "You can do it!" Any tangible support is going to result in a horrendous clamp down, people dying, people being tortured and the theocrats retaining their positions and we are the Great Satan once again.

        #3.2 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:23 AM EDT
        Nofluer

        1. I am aware of the current atmosphere and activities of the Iranian Navy in the Gulf between the Iranian Navy and the US Navy - these incidents/near incidents could easily escalate into open warfare. At the present time, the US is ill-equipped to fight a war with Iran, we haven't the forces, the equipment, nor the money to fight such a war.

        2. Even if we were currently capable of fighting a war with Iran, it would be extremely ill advised given the tactical challenges of the Iranian battlefields.

        3. If the US intervenes in Iran, it should be over a valid US security concern - such as their nuclear program. And since they show no desire to abate their drive for nukes, then if we intervene it should be sudden and massive and should take out as much of their nuclear capacity as possible at one stroke.

        4. Pissing around playing political games would only enrage and unite the Iranian people against the US. They would rightly feel that it's THEIR election and therefore none of OUR business. Nothing like short-circuiting any ill feeling toward Aba-ma-dime-a-job that may exist by helping him to stir up patriotic fervor against a common national enemy.

        Thus, I see absolutely NO upside to interfering, overtly or covertly with their elections or the results of same. (Especially given the ineptness of our current President who can't even write a secret letter to Putin without having it blasted all over the world's front pages.)

        • 4 votes
        #3.3 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:30 AM EDT
        GA GUY

        I think this has a good chance of being "bigger" than just US involvement regardless of whether or not that is a good course of action.

        Involvement on anything other than a diplomatic scale will carry heavy ramifications...

        I fear that both intervention and how deep an involvement will both be determined by Interior Iranian Politics.

        If the electorate reacts and takes steps to challenge the Theocracy, the Theocracy will make moves aimed at "security" that will ultimately include "policing" the straits...

        In that case, US, Chinese, and even Russian intervention is not only likely, but almost guaranteed.

        Any here who think either one or the other of the big three WON'T move to shore up "their" favored side of the internal struggle; will be seeing a bright light from reality shortly.

        The only chance for Iran is that the electorate decides NOT to protest.

        This situation is only the US's to REACT to; we do not control it, AT ALL!

        History could well record this event as the start of WWIII.

        • 1 vote
        #3.4 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:34 PM EDT
        Nofluer

        Ga #3.4

        See my #1.7

        • 2 votes
        #3.5 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:07 PM EDT
        Judge-574295Deleted
        GA GUY

        I saw it No Fleur;...

        I think we are all looking at this in much too simplistic terms.

        Iran is not, and has never been a republic or democratic form of government; and therefore, normal economic triggers do not apply there.

        This will take off based upon the emotions of the moment. While repression may work for awhile; the sheer literacy of the main body politic will dictate that reforms occur, and not all of these will favor the Theocracy.

        Khamenei may have well over-played his hand here. His "advisers" and "experts" may well become his greatest liability. And if they do; simply changing the players will not work for this electorate. They are going to want a change at the top.

        The deciding factor will be whether or not the Armed Forces remain totally loyal to the Theocracy. They are well paid, it is true; but it is very hard to fight against your own country when it becomes the populace against the government. If the "rank and file" break; all of the hierarchy is ill fated at best.

        I agree with Scott here;...I think this was a "tactical" mistake, totally devoid of strategic global thinking.

        • 1 vote
        #3.7 - Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:46 PM EDT
        Scott Isaacs

        GA GUY:

        Iran is not, and has never been a republic or democratic form of government; and therefore, normal economic triggers do not apply there.

        Not only this, but more importantly the people of Iran had previously believed that their country allowed them to freely elect certain members of the government like the President and that these elections were in line with the teachings of Islam. Iranians are familiar with, and like, the idea of democracy because they've been electing the heads of their villages since time immemorial. The fact that the Iranian people believed that since 1979 (and that the Ayatollah has pushed this belief as true) they have had the right to choose their President and that doing so is consistent with being a good Muslim is what makes it so dangerous for Khamenei to take the side of Ahmadinejad whom it is clear stole this election. He derives his power from being the viceroy of Allah to the Iranian people... when he starts blatantly violating Islam's religious tenets he is no longer of any use to the Iranian people.

        This will take off based upon the emotions of the moment. While repression may work for awhile; the sheer literacy of the main body politic will dictate that reforms occur, and not all of these will favor the Theocracy.

        The other problem that Khamenei is dealing with is that using force will only goad his opponents on. A student was killed today in a scuffle with a pro-Ahmadinejad militia and already that student is being lionized as a martyr and hailed as an example of what others must do for the sake of Iran. So not only does clamping down with violence embolden Khamenei's enemies, but it also drives local police and others who make common cause with Moussavi's followers into the arms of Moussavi.

        Khamenei may have well over-played his hand here. His "advisers" and "experts" may well become his greatest liability. And if they do; simply changing the players will not work for this electorate. They are going to want a change at the top.

        I think he violated that old dictum about not putting an outhouse where you eat.

        • 2 votes
        #3.8 - Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:20 PM EDT
        GA GUY

        Agreed Scott,

        And he has the hubris to act as though he has done nothing wrong at all.

        39 million votes, counted in only three hours... indeed!

          #3.9 - Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:12 AM EDT
          Reply
          Adam Kemp

          We've already tried taking out an Iranian government and putting in our own pro-American leader. It came back to bite us. It doesn't even matter if our intentions are good or not. They will resent us just for doing it, just like a lot of Iraq does right now. People don't like having outsiders take over their country. We need to let Iranians do this on their own.

          • 3 votes
          Reply#4 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:26 AM EDT
          Nofluer

          Exactly.

          • 4 votes
          #4.1 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:33 AM EDT
          Holly-348328

          I agree! We wouldn't appreciate the same interference from Iran either. It's a huge bone of contention in Iraq also.

            #4.2 - Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:48 AM EDT
            Reply
            Chuck-940216

            Just two questions and then some comments: 1) Were the protests limited geographically to urban area(s) and not the rural? 2) How does one actually prove the election was stolen ? Assertions simply are that, assertions. Is not much of this sour grapes.

            Comments to the US: Stay out of this utterly. Have nothing to do with this. It is an Iranian problem, not ours. By what right do we enter into thier internal affairs?

            I suspect many in Iran sense correctly that if the US could do it it would utterly privatize Islam and force it out of the public square. Yes, religion is OK as long as it is a "therapy" but keep it to yourself! Make no mistake, the goal of the US is to remover Islam from Muslim society and privatize it which is tantamount to destroying it.

            The entire modernist project is the destroying of the commonweal, the elimination of all mediating institutions, and placing the human person subservient to an all powerful state. In other words, the removal of any authority other than the state. This is not the freedom found in our own Constitution, rather, it is just the semblance of freedom which is destroyed. If I were Muslim I would see that whatever America plans those plans are hostile to Islam.

              Reply#5 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:19 PM EDT
              R. O. Davis

              This is the very best discussion I've read on the vine. Thank you!

              • 1 vote
              Reply#6 - Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:05 PM EDT
              Bill Harrison

              My friend Scott Isaacs epitomizes the very best of Newsvine. T'is a pity more don't follow his example.

              • 3 votes
              #6.1 - Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:29 AM EDT
              Scott Isaacs

              R. O. Davis:

              I'm so pleased that you've found this both interesting and informative. Thanks for coming to my column and please return. :-)

              • 1 vote
              #6.2 - Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:54 PM EDT
              Scott Isaacs

              Bill:

              Thank you, I appreciate your kind words. I would be remiss if I didn't thank the core group of friends that I have here on Newsvine that come to my column regularly. They come with an interest in having a fruitful discussion and with something to contribute to said discussion. My thanks to those that frequent my column and make it possible.

              • 2 votes
              #6.3 - Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:57 PM EDT
              Reply
              Bob Nelson.

              Scott.... You really MUST learn concision!

              Stop making me work so hard, please. ;-)

              I can't help but wonder:

              Did Khamenei actually order the result to be as ridiculous at it was it was? If so, why? What could he possibly be trying to accomplish? Since I can find no reasonable answer there, I flip to the other side. I imagine that Khamenei ordered the result to be "largely favorable" to Ahmedinejad... and someone went way, way too far. But again, I come up against the fact that I can see nothing to be gained by producing such an absurd result.

              The only possible idea I have found is that Khamenei has completely abandoned all hope of support from the educated classes. He is thumbing his nose at them, while pandering to the rural uneducated population. Après moi, le déluge!

              • 1 vote
              Reply#7 - Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:50 AM EDT
              Scott Isaacs

              Bob:

              Well, I have been thinking about the possible motive of Khamenei and the only thing I can come up with is that he was afraid not only that reformists might start to claim more authority from the religious authorities that Ahmadinejad has and that Moussavi (who is a relative of Khamenei's) would be one too many lions in the pride, so to say. However, in his haste to ensconce Ahmadinejad in the Presidency for another term I think that he has created a larger problem that could lead the Iranian people to seize far more power from him than if he had simply allowed the election to be fairly decided.

              • 1 vote
              #7.1 - Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:29 PM EDT
              Bob Nelson.

              I remain mystified by the size of the mistake. I can fully understand stuffing the box to a 54-35 result, or something like that. Enough to be "undisputed", without being totally absurd.

              They went to "absurd". I cannot find any good explanation, other than a declaration of war on the urban educated. And that would be very short-sighted.

              Mystified!

                #7.2 - Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:06 AM EDT
                Reply
                DarthVSchw

                It's so very sad that someone as supposedly educated as Khamenei must pander to the uneducated to protect himself in his post. I really hate to see Iran go up in flames, but I fear that this is what will happen.

                  Reply#8 - Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:05 AM EDT
                  Sgt C USMC

                  Scott,

                  Great article first of all. Very informative.

                  Though I have to agree with Bill and the rest. We've been through this before. Every time we've tried to get ambitious in the Middle East, it's come back to bite us. In fact one of the largest reasons we've drawn such hatred from the fundamentalist muslims is because we won't butt our nose out of their affairs. (Consider that Bin Laden didn't actively start targeting US troops until after we out-propositioned the muhjadeen to the Saudis that Bin Laden went underground and shortly thereafter US citizens in Saudi protectorates were attacked.)

                  We've tried staging coups, giving weapons and training, tacit diplomacy, sanctions, and everytime we've just portrayed ourselves as more and more oppressive to the fundamentalists. We've destabilized the region so much, that we can't afford another splintered government. That would turn the entire population of Iran against us . The only times the Qu'ran accepts a muslim to kill are in self defense of him or his family, or when he's being oppressed. As it was pointed out earlier, that would unify the entire region against the US yet again. You'd see more successful recruiting for anti-american insurgencies, which would result in more US casualties in not just Iran, but throughout the entire middle east. For now , Iran has been a relatively neutral observer in the insurgency effort. Meddling in their election (as tainted as it might be) would change that.

                  • 1 vote
                  Reply#9 - Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:04 PM EDT
                  Scott Isaacs

                  SGT:

                  I agree that when we start leaving a big footprint when we get involved in places like this it is bad news. That's why I think our assistance should be limited to an intelligence-sharing role in which we give them tip-offs that allow the Reformers to protect themselves or to gain ground on their opponents. In such a case, I think we could keep our role in the thing quiet, have no recognizable part in the eventual endgame and create some good will from a potential Moussavi govt if this ends in a positive way for us and the Iranian reformers.

                  • 1 vote
                  #9.1 - Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:25 PM EDT
                  Reply
                  jsbach

                  I have read the comments of everyone here and damn, if I'm not experiencing goose bumps.

                  As a non-philosophical member, I have looked at this in a different light. From the few photographs and bits of information allowed through the pipeline of communication, I have yet to see one sign asking the U.S. to intervene. Not one student or citizen has shown a protest sign pleading for assistance from our country.

                  I do have that mindset that boy, oh boy, I want us to ride over there on the white horse and save all the people from the controlling government but logically, I think we have too much to risk. We are obligated to the hilt right now and I think if we were to begin to mount even the slightest impression of interference, I think it would blow North Korea into another frenzy. It would also give the Muslim extremists more reason to openly attack us and Great Britain. They would see this as aggression toward Islam. Would they not?

                  I never thought I would say this but the best thing for us to do is to be patient and wait.

                  Susan

                  • 1 vote
                  Reply#10 - Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:05 PM EDT
                  Nofluer

                  If we're not careful, it will be our controlling government that we will have to save people from...

                  • 1 vote
                  #10.1 - Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:22 PM EDT
                  Scott Isaacs

                  Susan:

                  I don't want us to kill anyone but I do think that it could be useful to the reformists if we used our intelligence by passing it along to them in a way that allows them to protect themselves from Ahmadinejad's forces and capitalize on this chance.

                  • 1 vote
                  #10.2 - Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:22 PM EDT
                  Bob Nelson.

                  Iranians are very nationalist. Even those who despise the ayatollahs bristle at "America". Mossadegh lives!

                  The best thing America can do is stay far out.

                    #10.3 - Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:09 AM EDT
                    jsbach

                    Scott,

                    Sharing intelligence is a good beginning. I fear that those in the military who support Ahmadinejad will never allow a fair counting of votes as we have recently seen the manner as to how they support Ahmadinejad.

                    The longer we wait on a recount, the less likely the reformists will get their choice in office.

                    By the way Scott, excellent, excellent, article.

                    • 1 vote
                    #10.4 - Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:42 PM EDT
                    Reply
                    Noel-480385

                    Sounds like the the 2000 and 2004 US election we have litte room to speak.

                      Reply#11 - Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:31 AM EDT
                      Bob Nelson.

                      Ouch! ;-)

                        #11.1 - Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:09 AM EDT
                        Reply
                        Holly-348328

                        Noel, I was thinking the same thing as I read this article. Here in America we have the electoral college. In Iran they have the Ayatollah.

                          Reply#12 - Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:51 AM EDT
                          Leave a Comment:
                          You're in Easy Mode. If you prefer, you can use XHTML Mode instead.
                          You're in XHTML Mode. If you prefer, you can use Easy Mode instead.
                          (XHTML tags allowed - a,b,blockquote,br,code,dd,dl,dt,del,em,h2,h3,h4,i,ins,li,ol,p,pre,q,strong,ul)
                          Newsvine Privacy Statement
                          As a new user, you may notice a few temporary content restrictions. Click here for more info.
                          FUN STUFF:
                          • Leaderboard |
                          • E-Mail Alerts |
                          • Top of the Vine |
                          • Newsvine Live |
                          • Newsvine Archives |
                          • The Greenhouse |
                          COMPANY STUFF:
                          • Code of Honor |
                          • Company Info |
                          • Contact Us |
                          • Jobs |
                          • User Agreement |
                          • Privacy Policy |
                          • About our ads
                          LEGAL STUFF:
                          • © 2005-2012 Newsvine, Inc. |
                          • Newsvine® is a registered trademark of Newsvine, Inc. |
                          • Newsvine is a property of msnbc.com